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 [SM] Hidan by GodScream

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PostSubject: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:13 pm

HEROE COMPLETED


I know, we have 7 hidan suggestions in Heroe Ideas section. I read them all. So why mine would be more interesting than the others??

I add this one because it's the closer thing between anime/manga and what we can add in nwu with a proper role and proper skills (actualy tank/initiator).

Change Log::

-PASSIVE CHANGED (thx to phoenix for the idea)
-physical damage returned in ultimate lowered
-took out fear and reduced stun in 1st skill
-magical damage efter end ultimate lowered
-Chances to push hidan away from circle in jashin's form highered
-lowred MS AS in tank skill

Quote :

Name: Hidan
Alias: Immortal Shinobi
Role: Tank
Sub-Role: Initiator


"Now! Let's savour the utmost of suffering together




Stats:
Damage: 49-56
Range: 150 (Saru melee range is 125)
Armor: 5
Move Speed: 295

Attributes:
Strength: 25 + 2.9
Agility: 18 + 1.9
Intelligence: 16 + 1.7

Quote :

Triple-Bladed Scythe Rushing Move
Flavor Text: The Triple-Bladed Scythe is Hidan's primary weapon. Hidan will rush toward his ennemy waving his scythe in a large area terrorizing any ennemies enough fool to get near him.

Spell Type: Active
Targets: Ennemy



Mana Cost: 100/110/120/130
Cooldown: 14 seconds
Radius: N/A
Range: 650
Cast Time: 0.0
Required Level: 1/3/5/7


Spell Description : Hidan will dashes toward the ennemy targeted dealing 140/180/220/260 damage and stunning him for 0.5/1/1.5/2 second. While dashing, every ennemy on his way (about 200 aoe face to hidan) will gets half damage but without stun.



Quote :

Jashin's Blessing
Flavor Text: Through experiments with Jashin's secret technique, Hidan can be granted great resistance to physical and magical damage while praying his god Jashin.

Spell Type: Active
Targets: Self




Mana Cost: 120 mana on activation then 20MP/ second (can be deactivated like for lee's ulti)
Cooldown: 18 seconds
Range: N/A
AOE: N/A
Cast Time: 0 seconds
Type: Spell
Required Level: 1/3/5/7


Activation: Hidan will gain +25/30/35/40% Magic resistance, +4/8/12/16 armor but will lose 40% MS and AS for 8 seconds (can be reverted back to normal)

If Hidan is under Jashin's mode AND Jashin's blessing, his allies are able to attack him.

Quote :

[Passive] Sadism (with a toggle on/off)
Flavor Text: Hidan enjoys pain and manage to take as much wounds as possible.

Spell Type: Passive
Targets: All



Mana Cost: None
Cooldown: N/A
Radius: 500/600/700/800
Range: N/A
Cast Time: N/A
Required Level: 1/3/5/7


Passive effect: Hidan gains +2/3/4/5 Hp regen.

Active Efect [Toggle On/Off]: Damage dealt to ally heroes in 500/600/700/800 AoE is partly reduced and taken by Hidan instead.
Hidan takes 3/6/9/12% of the damage that would be taken by nearby allies.



Quote :

Curse Technique: Death Controlling Possessed Blood
Flavor Text: After taking his ennemy blood, Hidan draws Jashin's symbol on the ground in blood and stands in the centre. This serves as the link between him and his victim.

Once his sacrificial ritual takes place, the victim is linked with Hidan until he either steps or is forced out of the circle. Any kind of injury that Hidan takes is reciprocated on his target. Basically, this technique makes Hidan a living voodoo doll.

Spell Type: Active
Target: Ennemy heroe on next hit



Mana Cost: 180/210/240
Cooldown: 100/90/80 seconds
Duration: 7 seconds
Damage: N/A
Cast Time: N/A
Type: Spell
Required Level:6/11/16


Activation:
On his next hit on an ennemy heroe, Hidan will take his blood.
After 0.5 second taking his ennemy blood, Hidan will enter into jashin's mode by drawing jashin's symbol on the ground with 200/250/300 AOE.

As long as Hidan stays in the circle, the ennemy target will take 80/90/100% magical damage and 60/70/80% physical damage dealt to Hidan and after 7 second, if he is in the circle, Hidan will deal to himself 300/400/500 magical damage (non lethal for hidan).

The damage taken by the linked unit (via Hidan) is pre-mitigated damage, meaning Hidan's armor and magic resistance don't factor into the damage transfered to them.

.

In Jashin's mode, every ennemy hits will have 35% chance to push Hidan by 50 units range (like for Sakura push).

If Hidan is under Jashin's mode AND Jashin's blessing, his allies are able to attack him.






Last edited by GodScream on Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:01 pm; edited 23 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:01 pm

#1. Stun and fear in the same spell, and it deals damage... no.

#2. He gains super damage reduction... so that even if the opposing team attacks him, or his allies, the attacks deal crap damage. The debuffs to his attack speed and movement speed will basically make him a snail in teamfights, unless he manages to catch 5 people everytime.

#3. Now he's a carry. All you have to do is build Strength on the hero and when he attacks he is healed for at least 200 HP every 2 seconds.

#4. Aside from this greatly limiting what the hero can do, let's think about things for a moment. Heroes have a natural 25% magic resistance and your Hidan's magic resistance is bumped up to 65% with the 2nd spell active. So, your ultimate deals no damage.


The usual mistakes made with a Hidan build, despite looking at 7 of them. Insane defensive spell, which mitigates damage, but, it greatly hinders Hidan and the build. The dual disable spell is way too strong as well.


Last edited by Cut Chemist on Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:30 am

not bad but we need a model for it too >o

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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:53 pm

Cut Chemist wrote:
#1. Stun and fear in the same spell, and it deals damage... no.

#2. He gains super damage reduction... so that even if the opposing team attacks him, or his allies, the attacks deal crap damage. The debuffs to his attack speed and movement speed will basically make him a snail in teamfights, unless he manages to catch 5 people everytime.

#3. Now he's a carry. All you have to do is build Strength on the hero and when he attacks he is healed for at least 200 HP every 2 seconds.

#4. Aside from this greatly limiting what the hero can do, let's think about things for a moment. Heroes have a natural 25% magic resistance and your Hidan's magic resistance is bumped up to 65% with the 2nd spell active. So, your ultimate deals no damage.


The usual mistakes made with a Hidan build, despite looking at 7 of them. Insane defensive spell, which mitigates damage, but, it greatly hinders Hidan and the build. The dual disable spell is way too strong as well.

1/ The fear is only for guys in the way. It is different from the stun which is only apllied on the ennemy target. Damage dealt on the ennemies on the path are divided by 2 (it means = max 130 damage... which is nothing)

2/Yup, hes a tank after all. And this tank/snail have more attack range than any melee heroe ingame.

3/ Tank skill which allows him to keep up in battle. I reduced the amount of hp gained

4/READ, the 2nd skill only applies on Hidan (ex: nida dash on hidan while ulti+ 2nd skill, hidan will take lesser damage from that magic skill but the ennemy cursed will take regular damage).. Its just like anko's ulti which deals damage to both heroes but combining with her MR reduction passive, anko take lesser damage.
+ Allies heroe can hit hidan if he use ulti+ 2nd skill in order to damage the cursed heroe without damaging too much hidan since he can have +16 max armor + some hp regen.


You're talking about insane defense skill but that costs load of mana too and with big malus slow+AS. Don't forget he's a tank. Gaara also have an imba defense skill (which is permanent and unlimited as long as he has mana btw) and that doesn't hurt nwu gameplay at all.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:00 am

Quote :
Don't forget he's a tank

He's not a tank, as with most of the heroes you suggest he's basically another- I can do most everything and still carry. Also, I don't care about the hero's defensive spell costing mana, albeit if anything that is a flaw in the build, since in order to work you're asking the player to build mana regen and mana pool increasing items, as opposed to getting strength/hp increasing items which actually synergize with his build.


#1. Fear is still a disable, meaning the hero can disable 5 heroes for 3 seconds. Not to mention the spell deals damage despite having the crippling disables.

#2. Great, he's a tank. Except, not really. He lacks so much mobility, unless you get a ton of farm on him, that all the opposing team has to do is move away.

#3. Lol? Except its splash damage. That's not a tank spell, ever. That's literally a Carry component, meant to give your hero the ability to deal maximum damage within a short period of time.

#4. Let's see here... aside from the damage return spell alone being a powerful ultimate, you added a strong nuke, for some reason. However, the damage sharing hits the wall because of your phrasing.

What you actually want to put in the spell description (I think) is something like...

The damage taken by the linked unit (via Hidan) is pre-mitigated damage, meaning Hidan's armor and magic resistance don't factor into the damage transfered to them.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:11 am

In case like hat, i usually like to compare with other heroes already in nwu.

As mana regen build on a tank, we already saw that with kisa with 80HP/sec regen... Is his game rigged as tank?? I don't think so...

1/The fear disable won't works on 5 heroe except if they all sticks together. And it's not a disable but an initating skill since its a dash. It's like for choji stun (ofc it's will "disable" 5 heroes if they're alll in AOE.) Again, im telling you damage maximum is 130... vs nidaime which is 300 dmg without fear or vs yonda which is about 130 also but with much lower cd...
Jirobo 1st skill does much more damage, have stun instead fear and transform terrain. He's still a tank isnt it?

2/Lacks of mobility? You already have 1st spell which allows ya to make round trips... + you have the attack range which is the best ingame talking about melee. + you can deactivate the skill when you don't wanna to use it anymore + you can buy blink if ya want

3/So u're telling me that asuma wind skill or Sui water splash makes him as carry? They're both tanks. Here, it's about the same thing except that hidan has MUCH lower splash range and that HP regen helps him in tanking skill.

4/It's a powerful ultimate but remember that i chose 80/90/100% return damage and that every ennemies hitting hidan will have chance to push him outta circle. But after thinking, ima lower % of physical dmage dealt to ennemy hereo cursed but keep the % of magical dmage dealt.

Yup, im not that skilled in english to explain my ideas ^^ "The damage taken by the linked unit (via Hidan) is pre-mitigated damage, meaning Hidan's armor and magic resistance don't factor into the damage transfered to them." added




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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:36 pm

GodScream wrote:
In case like hat, i usually like to compare with other heroes already in nwu.

As mana regen build on a tank, we already saw that with kisa with 80HP/sec regen... Is his game rigged as tank?? I don't think so...

1/The fear disable won't works on 5 heroe except if they all sticks together. And it's not a disable but an initating skill since its a dash. It's like for choji stun (ofc it's will "disable" 5 heroes if they're alll in AOE.) Again, im telling you damage maximum is 130... vs nidaime which is 300 dmg without fear or vs yonda which is about 130 also but with much lower cd...
Jirobo 1st skill does much more damage, have stun instead fear and transform terrain. He's still a tank isnt it?

2/Lacks of mobility? You already have 1st spell which allows ya to make round trips... + you have the attack range which is the best ingame talking about melee. + you can deactivate the skill when you don't wanna to use it anymore + you can buy blink if ya want

3/So u're telling me that asuma wind skill or Sui water splash makes him as carry? They're both tanks. Here, it's about the same thing except that hidan has MUCH lower splash range and that HP regen helps him in tanking skill.

4/It's a powerful ultimate but remember that i chose 80/90/100% return damage and that every enemies hitting hidan will have chance to push him outta circle. But after thinking, ima lower % of physical dmage dealt to enemy hero cursed but keep the % of magical damage dealt.



Your example of Kisame doesn't mean much, since he clearly benefits more from having mana to tank more damage, and the fact is that Kisame still has to get all of the necessary farm. Anyway, your Hidan benefits from having a ton of HP so that he isn't picked off once he ultimates someone and takes damage.

#1. It is a disable and despite what you think, lining up heroes with spells like that isn't hard to do. The hero can disable an entire team and that really isn't okay, given his insane survivability via skill 2. If anything the duration of fear should be greatly reduced or replaced with a different effect that isn't debilitating, since Hidan wants the opposing team to attack him once he dashes into his target, not to run away from him for 3 seconds.

#2. Yes, lack of moblity. Your 1st spell might get him into the fray and if he's lucky the entire enemy team will stay there, or not. After that the hero needs to be within his circle and he's already suffering -30% movespeed with the spell maxed, so how is he going to keep up with an enemy team that knows what they're doing? And buy blink? To what end? Now the hero needs a blink, a ton of mana and hp to be effective.

#3. Yes, to your first question. And the only reason they're tanky (although, I would hardly describe Suigetsu as being a tanky hero, since his passive's damage block is minimal) is because of some reason Eol/Muzk put tank hero abilites on them, combined with semi-carry abilities. They're basically strength semi-carries, in actuality. The AoE may be low, but that doesn't matter it's still 80% of his damage being applied every 2 seconds to an AoE.

#4. Okay.


Edit: If you want to know how Asuma was truly intended to operate, look no further than this post. You'll notice that his splash damage is conditional on him being hit and that it only lasts for a short period of time. This was one of two Asuma's I suggested.

Spoiler:
 


Last edited by Cut Chemist on Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:02 pm

Jirobo does not have any spell increasing his ability to tank, he's STR which means he just has more health but being a tank requires abilities going beyond that, so Jirobo is not more tank than for example Kakashi.

His ultimate forces him to stay inside a small area and his primary tank ability does decrease his movementspeed by at least 25% which is about 80 MS if he gets Trends.

Btw. what does running away exactly mean? Are they forced to run towards a point in x distance for the complete duration or are they forced to run away if they get closer than x distance to Hidan? Either way i am not a big fan of fear cause it opposes his ultimate and the sense of being attacked by as much people as possible.

I might be wrong, but it seems like you can counter him pretty much by just running away and kiting his team away from him if he wants to keep up then he would be forced to turn of his 2nd ability which makes him more vulnerable. If he does not turn of his 2nd spell and his team does not run stays with him the enemy team can retreat easily and attack after his selfbuff ran out.


The way you describe the link betwen his ultimate and his selfbuff is some kind of "ignoring armor" as you would have to know how much damage would have been dealt without his armor/resistance or if he had less. I'm do not know how the magic resistance system of nwu works but even though those kind of things are possible, they are not easy to realize when you have do deal with the wc3 mechanics.


What i'm also wondering about is, why would i attack him during his ultimate+selfbuff, my hero or my teammate would die much faster than Hidan does, except he targeted someone highly overfarmed. And his allies attacking him would only work with mates.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:42 pm

@Phoenix,
That's all the idea in ultimate. You have 2 choices:

-chosing to attack hidan in ulti form to get him outta circle (would be even more difficult for hidan to going b in circle if he choses to activate 2nd skill), you have much chance to get him outta there but u damage your ally cursed (but lesser than hidan since % dealt is at 60/70/80%)

-chosing to let him alone in circle risking to deal 400/550/700 damge to your friend cursed + allies who can hit hidan without pushing him away from circle.

In both ways, the teamate cursed will get damaged.

The strategy when playing this hidan, is, dashing your target, stunning him, taking his blood, turn into ultimate, telling your allies to hit you + keep away the ennemies until final blow. If there's no allies, you can defend yourself with 2nd skill and with passive which allows hp regen. (ass cloak also works if you wanna stay hidden from ennemies)
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:46 pm

GodScream wrote:
@Phoenix,
That's all the idea in ultimate. You have 2 choices:

-chosing to attack hidan in ulti form to get him outta circle (would be even more difficult for hidan to going b in circle if he choses to activate 2nd skill), you have much chance to get him outta there but u damage your ally cursed (but lesser than hidan since % dealt is at 60/70/80%)

-chosing to let him alone in circle risking to deal 400/550/700 damge to your friend cursed + allies who can hit hidan without pushing him away from circle.

Except, you realize 400 / 550 / 700 damage is an ultimate itself. While as your giving the opponent's team the ability to deal that alone in physical damage via attacks in a couple of seconds, so... the ability is still OP.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:57 pm

Physical damage are reduced on the cursed ennemy. Allies can indeed hit you but remember that ennemy team (if he's smart) will try to disable, aoe stun as much as possible the ally team.
That ultimate offers to the hidan's ally team to freely hit (but with lower damage dealt) an ennemy heroe who, even if running away, will keep taking damage.

EDIT: i make highered the chance to push hidan away when ennemy attacks him.


It will make a team fight over hidan. Regular ennnemy heroes will try to hit him to push him away, Ennemy supports disabler will try to disable hidan's team.

Ally hidan regular heroes will try to hit hidan in order to hit hte ennemy targeted. Ally hidan supports will try to disable ennemy team to prevent them to push hidan away from circle.

And while all this time, Hidan is taking the role of tank thx to his 2nd skill (he's absorbing all ennemies attention + damage, at least if the ennemies don't wanna lose their heroe marked)
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:06 pm

GodScream wrote:
Physical damage are reduced on the cursed ennemy. Allies can indeed hit you but remember that ennemy team (if he's smart) will try to disable, aoe stun as much as possible the ally team.
That ultimate offers to the hidan's ally team to freely hit (but with lower damage dealt) an ennemy heroe who, even if running away, will keep taking damage.

EDIT: i make highered the chance to push hidan away when ennemy attacks him.


It will make a team fight over hidan. regular Ennnemy heroes will try to hit him to push him away, Ennemy supports disabler will try to disable hidan's tem.

Ally hidan regulare heroes will try to hit hidan in order to hit te ennemy targeted. Ally hidan supports will try to disable ennemy team to prevent them to push hidan away from circle.

And while all this time, Hidan is taking the role of tank thx to his 2nd skill (he's absorbing all ennemies attention, at least if the ennemies don't wanna lose their heroe marked)

Doesn't matter. Either remove the magic component or the ability for allies to attack Hidan.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:10 pm

Cut Chemist wrote:
GodScream wrote:
Physical damage are reduced on the cursed ennemy. Allies can indeed hit you but remember that ennemy team (if he's smart) will try to disable, aoe stun as much as possible the ally team.
That ultimate offers to the hidan's ally team to freely hit (but with lower damage dealt) an ennemy heroe who, even if running away, will keep taking damage.

EDIT: i make highered the chance to push hidan away when ennemy attacks him.


It will make a team fight over hidan. regular Ennnemy heroes will try to hit him to push him away, Ennemy supports disabler will try to disable hidan's tem.

Ally hidan regulare heroes will try to hit hidan in order to hit te ennemy targeted. Ally hidan supports will try to disable ennemy team to prevent them to push hidan away from circle.

And while all this time, Hidan is taking the role of tank thx to his 2nd skill (he's absorbing all ennemies attention, at least if the ennemies don't wanna lose their heroe marked)

Doesn't matter. Either remove the magic component or the ability for allies to attack Hidan.

Sigh... I can lower back the magical damage dealt in the end but not remove 1 of those 2 effects. If hidan is alone without possibility to hurt himself, it will be quite useless. And the ability for allies to hurt him takes out much fun in his gameplay.

300/400/500 would be enough?
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:20 pm

GodScream wrote:
Cut Chemist wrote:
GodScream wrote:
Physical damage are reduced on the cursed ennemy. Allies can indeed hit you but remember that ennemy team (if he's smart) will try to disable, aoe stun as much as possible the ally team.
That ultimate offers to the hidan's ally team to freely hit (but with lower damage dealt) an ennemy heroe who, even if running away, will keep taking damage.

EDIT: i make highered the chance to push hidan away when ennemy attacks him.


It will make a team fight over hidan. regular Ennnemy heroes will try to hit him to push him away, Ennemy supports disabler will try to disable hidan's tem.

Ally hidan regulare heroes will try to hit hidan in order to hit te ennemy targeted. Ally hidan supports will try to disable ennemy team to prevent them to push hidan away from circle.

And while all this time, Hidan is taking the role of tank thx to his 2nd skill (he's absorbing all ennemies attention, at least if the ennemies don't wanna lose their heroe marked)

Doesn't matter. Either remove the magic component or the ability for allies to attack Hidan.

Sigh... I can lower back the magical damage dealt in the end but not remove 1 of those 2 effects. If hidan is alone without possibility to hurt himself, it will be quite useless. And the ability for allies to hurt him takes out much fun in his gameplay.

300/400/500 would be enough?

Hidan, as you're designing him is never "fun." He's an anti-fun hero when designed this way. Because once you're the unlucky person that gets tagged by him you're pretty much guaranteed to die. And for the player lucky enough to be Hidan you're really just supposed to sit in a circle and only attack things that come to hit you.

Any significant magic damage is OP. The best you can do is have it apply a minor D.o.T. effect.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:32 pm

400/500/600 magical damage is around 300/375/450 lost health. It's much but it's low compared to what a carry like Zabuza or a nuker like Sasuke or Kakuzu can do to 1 hero or the effect Hinata or Jirobo have on an entire team in that time, the only way worth to get your Hidan out of it are spells like Kaiten if you hit some others with it,too; Anko's Snake, Rasengan etc. are probably better suited for taking out one of the heroes mentioned above.


If Hidan does not build any defense items he has about 8-10 defense which is around 40% physical reduction.

Depending if the transfered damage is only not reduced by his 2nd spell or his entire armor, this means:

If the damage is only not affected by his 2nd spell:
100% damage * 0,6=60%
60%*0,7=42% Thats how much your ally will take on lvl 2 related to your attack, lvl 3 would be 48%.

Hidan has another 16 armor, 24-26 in total, resulting in ~60% reduction, obviously he will take only 40% of your attack as damage.

So your ally takes 1/5th more damage than Hidan does, the more armor Hidan has without his buff, the better for your ally. Not calculated is Reminisce which is as far as i know applied after the damage you can detect in wc3 triggers, while the armor is applied before.

For spells it means, your ally is gonna take 75%, while Hidan takes about 75%*0,6 =45% of the listed spell damage.


If the transfered damage ignores all of Hidans armor the result will be even more devastating for your ally.


His 2nd spell and his ultimate can be countered best by ignoring him, while his ultimate seems like a weaker version of Kaguya armor to me because it only affects one unit and you even have to mark it at melee range, which is another weak spot in his build.

If i had to play him i would get myself Reminisce, Nida's, Treads and play him as carry with his 3rd spell and use his ultimate only to keep the enemy main carry of me.
Ganking with Nida's Frenzy and his first spell to be keep his lane partner of me. He would for sure work somehow as some kind of 'fun carry' played by good players to troll the opposite team, but not as initiator or tank.

I'd say he might be devastating vs. an uncoordinated team but he can easily be countered in ihs.


P.S.: Your idea of this ultimate only works allies and enemies pay all attention to Hidan, instead of fighting over him by trying to push him out or keep the enemy away from doing that. The easier way would be to kill the main carry of Hidan's team and see how the rest has to rely on fighting you the usual way. If you want it even easier, get Neji, blink betwen Hidan and his allies and his ultimate is completly useless having dealt about 200 damage from Kaiten.

Killing a runaway is unlikely cause it only works if the fight is already won while an initiator is expected to make his team win the clash.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:45 pm

Ignoring him and let the main ally carries hitting hidan (=hitting the ennemy marked?) until final stab?

Indeed, you need to be melee mark in close range which is a weak spot (synergy with 1st skill !). Ulti is powerful and like for all ultis, you have main skill scounter.

Counter are : Neji's kaiten, Neji's 64, Anko pull, Pain's pull, Pain's shinra tensei, Sui ulti, Sakura pushes, rasengan, ino's ulti, Asu's taunt, jiraya's fireball, kaka's copy, sakon push, Iron fan... + the slight push when ennemies attack him

See? It's like for shodaime ulti which looks op (many noobs say that it is completely OP, idiot and imba...) while you can destroy trees or blinks away.... Ulti i made is not garanteed to work in 100% case. If you have some brain, you can go through it.

It adds more spicy ingame with interesting skills build (which have synergy also) never seen in dota, i believe.

PS: i wanted to transfer damage without going through "filter" Hidan's magical or physical resistance but with the % i wrote


EDIT: @Chemist, when 1st designed shodaime or neji, your comment "antifun heroe that insta kill 1 unlucky guy" would also works.. Same for Neji's 64 which is the longest hold ingame (which is, moreover, unbreakable)
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:55 pm

GodScream wrote:


EDIT: @Chemist, when 1st designed shodaime or neji, your comment "antifun heroe that insta kill 1 unlucky guy" would also works.. Same for Neji's 64 which is the longest hold ingame (which is, moreover, unbreakable)

Except, with Neji your actual goal is to move around and do thing in a teamfight. With Hidan your goal is to use your 1st spell, ult someone, and not move around in a teamfight. How is that fun or a desired action for a player?

Why are you bringing up Neji and Shodaime? Their "instant" albeit not really since you could still do things such as heal or shield a person spells were balance related, more so than concept related, which is where your problem lies.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:10 pm

I did not speak of ignoring the main carry, i spoke of ignoring Hidan and letting him stand in the circle while killing the main carry, if he does not start counterattacking he will die easily.


Quote :
PS: i wanted to transfer damage without going through "filter" Hidan's magical or physical resistance but with the % i wrote

Besides the fact that it's hard to code it, making it work like this is extremly strong vs bad enemies or an aoe damage based team, while it is quite useless vs an 1v1 damage based team or experienced players.



Anyways you should make up your mind which role your Hidan should fullfil without trying to invent something totally new.

In any case his ultimate needs to get the ally parts removed and get a more clear way of transfering damage. (Which damage type does the transfered damage even have?)

Keeping his 3rd spell would turn him into a carry, which would give a reason to be attacked for his ultimate.

If you want him to be initiator you should find buffs/debuffs which do not create too much chaos in his skillset or anti-synergy with his ultimate (some defense is ok, mby give him good str growth and very low base def to balance things)

P.S.: If you take out the self damage from ulti, you could lower the cooldown and add a spell like Double Edge from Dota's Bradwarden.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:32 pm

Cut Chemist wrote:
GodScream wrote:


EDIT: @Chemist, when 1st designed shodaime or neji, your comment "antifun heroe that insta kill 1 unlucky guy" would also works.. Same for Neji's 64 which is the longest hold ingame (which is, moreover, unbreakable)

Except, with Neji your actual goal is to move around and do thing in a teamfight. With Hidan your goal is to use your 1st spell, ult someone, and not move around in a teamfight. How is that fun or a desired action for a player?

Why are you bringing up Neji and Shodaime? Their "instant" albeit not really since you could still do things such as heal or shield a person spells were balance related, more so than concept related, which is where your problem lies.

Im taking neji and shodaime as example when you say that "you get caught in that ulti = you dead" In fact, you have many counters to every ulti even this one.

+ Who ever said that the only goal is to use 1st spell than ulti? He can also initiate and fight along with others + use 3rd skill if he get too much focused as tank. Ulti is just a bonus like for every ulti.

What i am saying is that since your 2 last posts, your arguments can be applied to every suggestion or heroe possible (if you get ulti, you die... The only goal is to run around and ulti etc...)
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:57 pm

Edit; I changed the damage splash passive by Phoenix passive which gives more a tank role to hidan + suits in my synergy. Thx to him for that great idea

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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:12 am

When you get caught by Neji's ultimate or Shodaime's you know whether or not you're going to die, because the spells deal a set amount of damage to the target and you know whether their teammates will join in. In your case you're dealing static damage and an additional unknown amount of damage to the target via Hidan, Hidan's allies and the opposing team, since you took Phoenix's passive. Thanks to Hidan's link with the target.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:27 am

Since when an ultimate need a fixed amount of damage to be applied in nwu ? ^^ You still have counters i listed earlier
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:08 pm

GodScream wrote:
Since when an ultimate need a fixed amount of damage to be applied in nwu ? ^^ You still have counters i listed earlier

Since, you're trying to make a hero that can both initiate, carry and support. That is when damage needs to be reared back.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:05 pm

Im not trying to make a carry. having a single ultimate which reflect part of damage on an heroe doesnt him him as carry
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:16 pm

i prefer him as a support > tank Surprised

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