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 [SM] Hidan by GodScream

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GodScream
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:14 pm

spectre-idp wrote:
i prefer him as a support > tank Surprised

Tank is a bit support... Especially here in this hidan passive toggled on which takes max 12% damage dealt on ally heroes. He's sharing damage dealt on his allies which can support them well, giving more chances to them to survive in fights.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:32 pm

GodScream wrote:
Im not trying to make a carry. having a single ultimate which reflect part of damage on an heroe doesnt him him as carry

Who said his ultimate is the only factor that I'm considering? I'm considering the entire hero.
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GodScream
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:35 am

Cut Chemist wrote:
GodScream wrote:
Im not trying to make a carry. having a single ultimate which reflect part of damage on an heroe doesnt him him as carry

Who said his ultimate is the only factor that I'm considering? I'm considering the entire hero.

Well i don't see any skill which is related to attack damage and that can make him as carry / damage dealer.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:45 pm

GodScream wrote:
Cut Chemist wrote:
GodScream wrote:
Im not trying to make a carry. having a single ultimate which reflect part of damage on an heroe doesnt him him as carry

Who said his ultimate is the only factor that I'm considering? I'm considering the entire hero.

Well i don't see any skill which is related to attack damage and that can make him as carry / damage dealer.

Damage via attacks isn't the only way a hero can carry. Frankly, a person can just buy strength/damge items, with minimal mana regen and play the hero as a carry using spells 1 & 2 to deal a ton of damage, while taking minimal damage.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:43 pm

Cut Chemist wrote:
GodScream wrote:
Cut Chemist wrote:
GodScream wrote:
Im not trying to make a carry. having a single ultimate which reflect part of damage on an heroe doesnt him him as carry

Who said his ultimate is the only factor that I'm considering? I'm considering the entire hero.

Well i don't see any skill which is related to attack damage and that can make him as carry / damage dealer.

Damage via attacks isn't the only way a hero can carry. Frankly, a person can just buy strength/damge items, with minimal mana regen and play the hero as a carry using spells 1 & 2 to deal a ton of damage, while taking minimal damage.

Everyone can do that lol... like i said your latest arguments can apply to every heroe or suggestion in nwu.

EVERY heroe with typical "carry" items can become a carry. And moreover in this hidan, you have MS AS reduction which doesn't allow you to carry alone that easily...

As we''re dealing with tank, ima tell you that the "carry when buy items" is applied to lot of tanks already ingame: Asu, choji, sakura, yamato, anko, rai,... Almost every tanks can become "carry" with proper items.

Do u play often? because you can see that in every game. Everyone can become a carry but a guy who's not supposed to carry buying those items will carry less late game when a true carry who can become enough fed.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:38 pm

GodScream wrote:


Everyone can do that lol... like i said your latest arguments can apply to every heroe or suggestion in nwu.

EVERY heroe with typical "carry" items can become a carry. And moreover in this hidan, you have MS AS reduction which doesn't allow you to carry alone that easily...

As we''re dealing with tank, ima tell you that the "carry when buy items" is applied to lot of tanks already ingame: Asu, choji, sakura, yamato, anko, rai,... Almost every tanks can become "carry" with proper items.

Do u play often? because you can see that in every game. Everyone can become a carry but a guy who's not supposed to carry buying those items will carry less late game when a true carry who can become enough fed.

Really? Every hero? You're telling me every hero has this hero's spell-set? Please, do tell me about these very 'similar" heroes.

No one builds the right items in pub games, because in NWU pubs everyone wants to feel like they're the carry. If you try and tell them what to actually build, most of the time people will go tell you to play Dota, as if that's an insult.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:33 pm

Like i said : "Asu, choji, sakura, yamato, anko, rai,... "

I know that most ppl try to make carry items to have some kills and forget the idea of support. We see more twins+kusa build than 1st necklace with ho armor + tobi builds in most of games.

I am tolding ya that we can't do much thing while building+ suggesting new heroes about this matter.

No matter how far away a suggestion build can be from a role of a carry. This same heroe you're trying to avoid carrying will be a temporary carry ingame if used by a pub who gets fed and buys carry items...

That's why C&C have to be concentrated on the spells synergy, the potential of the role scheduled with the spells ppl suggest, spells fitting ingame + naruto world


About heroes sellset, I didn't copy other heroes "spellset" coz it would be useless adding another heroe like that. But if you insist, here you go

1/ I can maybe take nidaime or danzo for the dash. Anyway it's the initiator spell. You can't blame every heroe having a dash like that to be immediately suited as carry?

2/ raikage or asu or ono for the tanking spell. Since this a tank, what's wrong adding him MR, armor for a limited time depending on MP ? Moreover, you'll have a malus on MS AS... That really doesnt help to carry. More like tanky for me...

3/The passive beeing original and allows more tank/support. I don't see how it helps carrying in that spell. It helps your team surviving longer in fights.

4/Carrying while u're forced to stay in a circle to keep effectiveness on your spell. That doesn't encourage much to run after ppl and play carries.


To sum it up, This suggestion is really far from a carry role...
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:59 pm

GodScream wrote:
Like i said : "Asu, choji, sakura, yamato, anko, rai,... "

I know that most ppl try to make carry items to have some kills and forget the idea of support. We see more twins+kusa build than 1st necklace with ho armor + tobi builds in most of games.

I am tolding ya that we can't do much thing while building+ suggesting new heroes about this matter.

No matter how far away a suggestion build can be from a role of a carry. This same heroe you're trying to avoid carrying will be a temporary carry ingame if used by a pub who gets fed and buys carry items...

That's why C&C have to be concentrated on the spells synergy, the potential of the role scheduled with the spells ppl suggest, spells fitting ingame + naruto world


About heroes sellset, I didn't copy other heroes "spellset" coz it would be useless adding another heroe like that. But if you insist, here you go

1/ I can maybe take nidaime or danzo for the dash. Anyway it's the initiator spell. You can't blame every heroe having a dash like that to be immediately suited as carry?

2/ raikage or asu or ono for the tanking spell. Since this a tank, what's wrong adding him MR, armor for a limited time depending on MP ? Moreover, you'll have a malus on MS AS... That really doesnt help to carry. More like tanky for me...

3/The passive being original and allows more tank/support. I don't see how it helps carrying in that spell. It helps your team surviving longer in fights.

4/Carrying while u're forced to stay in a circle to keep effectiveness on your spell. That doesn't encourage much to run after ppl and play carries.


To sum it up, This suggestion is really far from a carry role...

Stop bolding things. I read everything you say with the same verasity, no matter whether it is bolded or increased text size.

The heroes you mentioned don't have a combination of extreme tanking ability with a built in barbed armor that lasts for 7 seconds, with a nuke that deals heavy magic damage.


#1. Danzo's and Nidaime's spells offer mobility and the ability to deal damage in battle. Yours is mobility + a disable, which frankly is OP due to its duration and since it offers both. Honestly, it would only work as an ultimate, on a balanced hero.

#2. Asuma's "tanking spell" lasts for 3 seconds, only impacts physical armor, and his build isn't what I call good in the first place; Onoki's works in the same way, limited duration, minor damage mitigation, very small window for damage return, along with it not necessarily being cast on Onoki; finally, Raikage's spell is the only real comparable one, due to its 10 second duration. However, I point out that once again its only a physical damage mitigation spell. Also, let's look at Raikage's base Strength, it is not 25.

#3. I have no problems with this spell, other than it not really fitting with the style of your Hidan. It fits Phoenix's Hidan much better.

#4. If it weren't for the first 2 spells, wouldn't be a problem.

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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:09 pm

1/ Took out fear. increased manacost

2/The tanking spell reduces a lot MS AS which are very important in fight. If you think its not enough for what the effect does, just tell me.
But This spell is essential for synergy with passive and ulti. Passive coz damage transfered to hidan will be reduced if this skill is activated. Ulti coz damage transfered is lower than 100% and that hidan have the right to have the biggest tanking skill to synergize with it.
(+ he's supposed to be unkillable in manga, better give him the biggest tanking skill in nwu game like for yonda and his MS increase passive since he's the yellow flash)

3/ Since he have much STR and tank role + synergy with 2nd spelll (dmg reduced) and ulti (damage transfered) + helps him survive with HP regen, it should also fits in here...

4/Final skill which can be easily countered but can have much potential if good teamwork. Synergy with all other skills (1st which allows to get melee cursed hit on the target, 2nd to decrease damage dealt by allies + ennemies (+no need MS AS in that ulti), 3rd to transfer damage dealt on allies heroes on hidan, which means also transfer on the cursed ennemy)


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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:51 am

I would get rid of this part, kinda useless


In Jashin's mode, every ennemy hits will have 35% chance to push Hidan by 50 units range (like for Sakura push).

just to much to code i think
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:03 am

Thunder palm ( push ) huhu Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:04 am

Westfield wrote:
I would get rid of this part, kinda useless


In Jashin's mode, every ennemy hits will have 35% chance to push Hidan by 50 units range (like for Sakura push).

just to much to code i think

Would be harder to counter this ultimate since as long as hidan stays in his circle, the damage received will be transfered... You can stun hidan before he can deal the final blow but you cant stop the damge transfer unless you got the spells i listed which can push like kaiten

Edit= i dont even know what muzk thinks about it since he told me an hidan suggestion would help. Dunno if its that hard to code, if he has model for it and if suits in nwu. (even if ik hes in exams period Mad like for me btw ! )
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:41 am

Ok after reading the whole thing and see some things lacking on roles knowledge and not seeing that people dont notce what need some changes and balances.

I will mention some important stuff:

God your points are wrong when a hero it work properly it should not carry or have at least any possibility to do it.

Sakura: Initiation skill + initiation/survival active + carry passive + carry active skill with little survivability {She is not a tank she is Initiatior/Hard carry, conclusion she is broken and need a revamp}

Azuma: Initiation/tank skill + carry skill + carry skill + Initiation ultimate {This guy is broken to, he can Initiate/Carry/Tank but his real role supposed to be is Initiator/tank. Only need small changes}

Chouji: He is ok with his skill set, only he need changes on his 3rd and his ultimate {The only reason this guy carry is because he can stack ombus + the fact that his ultimate gives him damage. He is Initiator/tank}

Yamato: Support skill + carry skill + support skill + support carry ultimate {This guy is broken to. He is supposed to be Support/Baby sitter, he needs changes on some of his skills}

Anko: 4 Words, she needs a revamp {She is supposed to be initiator/tank, but thanks to her snake passive, the people see he like a carry for the dps she deals. She only need some changes}

Raikage: This guy concept is okey, he have been nerfed {The only reason he was carrying was thanks to the fact that he could stack ombus to, but with the nerfs he will neva carry again.}

Nidaime: He can carry thanks to his movility and his survival supportish ultimate {This guy is supposed to be Ganker/semy-carry, but thanks to his skill composition he can support to. Need a revamp.}

Suigetsu: I suggested a revamp, because he is hella op Broken. {This guy can do many labors like initiate/gank/tank/carry}

There are more guys in the list but i think with this you got the point.

Now About your Hiddan:

Stick points where right, the whole concept make him Initiator/Support/Carry and i will explain why.

1. Initiation skill, kinda imba since you stun every guy in your path. Can used as tool for escaping hard situations.

2. This skill from "tanky" turned out into survival skill, God wtf is the meaning of this, i mean the ms reduction and as reduction can be ignored with movily + as items.

3. Another kind of survival skill that let hiddan support.

4. Hella carry skill, you stay in your point that is not Gad but it is and even more is considered as survival since you are returning dmg + de possible dmg you can deal via attacks.

So like stick said there are other way to carry, like returning damage dealing dps wia skill or auto attacking bonuces. In this case ur hiddan can out carry most of the carrys with items that buff him on hp dmg and as bonuses thanks to his ultimate he can solo any one who decides hit him, plus he have a lot of survivability with his 2nd and 3rd.

In conclusion i cant tell you what to change because everything is kinda messed up in this suggestion and never grab others stuff, maybe can work on other concept, but can give a diferent point of view in your onw concept.

Completly rework him, from the 1st skill to the ultimate.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:46 pm

1/ doesnt stun all ennemies, just the single unit you have target !!!
2/Reduced to 40% MS AS reduced at all levels
3/SUpport, I can higher more than 12% max damage transfer.
4/As i said, you have many counters to this ulti since you're stuck in circle. Moreover u need to be at melee hit to perform hit. + Returned physical damage are not 100% but 60/70/80%. I can lower it even more.

I tried to take everything to could make him as carry like lowered even more MS AS, lowered physical damage returned... in order to make him as tank/support/initiator

I would rather say that he's more an anti-carry heroe than a carry since if hes alone he cant do lot of damage lol (with regular spells or ulti, except 1skill which can finish a low hp guy).
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:33 pm

#1. It's basically a stun for all enemies, since they cannot attack, use items, use spells or move.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:46 am

Cut Chemist wrote:
#1. It's basically a stun for all enemies, since they cannot attack, use items, use spells or move.

Sigh... i told ya i did remove the fear about 5-8 posts before this one (plz look changelog). The ennemies in the path just take half damage and thats all. The targeted unit is stunned and take full damage.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:42 pm

GodScream wrote:
Cut Chemist wrote:
#1. It's basically a stun for all enemies, since they cannot attack, use items, use spells or move.

Sigh... i told ya i did remove the fear about 5-8 posts before this one (plz look changelog). The ennemies in the path just take half damage and thats all. The targeted unit is stunned and take full damage.

I reacted to Muzk's post. Anyway, can you guess how many stuns that last 3.0 seconds and work as a dash spell in Hon/Dota? It is 0. Bad idea to make it both a dash and a really strong single target disable.

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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:34 am

NAtsu is different from muzk ^^

Why do you quote dota/hon?? I know there's already 3 dash+stun in nwu...
-Raikage who can dash and stun the 1st heroe in his way. That dash is target point so he can dash in fog (he doesn't need a visual to dash in).
-Sakon who stun and drag the 1st ennemy unit. Same for rai, he can use it in fog AND can use it to escape, run away more easily than a ennemy target since it's a terrain target
-choji "jump" which can be considered as dash and AOE stun + damage (+ same, no need visual + easy to escape, run away)

Those 3 won't have problems with jukes.


Whatever, the minor things like stun duration can be easily changed later if feedback ingame is too bad.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:28 pm

GodScream wrote:
NAtsu is different from muzk ^^

Why do you quote dota/hon?? I know there's already 3 dash+stun in nwu...
-Raikage who can dash and stun the 1st heroe in his way. That dash is target point so he can dash in fog (he doesn't need a visual to dash in).
-Sakon who stun and drag the 1st ennemy unit. Same for rai, he can use it in fog AND can use it to escape, run away more easily than a ennemy target since it's a terrain target
-choji "jump" which can be considered as dash and AOE stun + damage (+ same, no need visual + easy to escape, run away)

Those 3 won't have problems with jukes.


Whatever, the minor things like stun duration can be easily changed later if feedback ingame is too bad.

HoN/Dota are more balanced, that is why I use them. Not NWU, as you do. How many times must you bring up a hero with a different spell-set and use it to justify you hero's usual imbalanced spell-set? It doesn't work, stop. All 3 of the heroes you mentioned have skill-shot spells, not what is basically a blink strike. The duration is also insane for a spell of that nature, it's a sure 3 second stun that cannot miss at level 4.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan by GodScream   Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:15 pm

Im using nwu coz the character created will be incorporated into nwu gameplay not into dota... And im bringing those spells coz you asked me how many dash/stun spells there are...

The spell is here for initiate. What is the point bringing another same dash than others like you described while you're invited to create NEW characters?

Moreover, the spell set of the heroes quoted are not that different from this hidan since they're all tanks and have a surviving tank skill (A armor, sakon stats...)...

As i said the stun duration can always be decreased (btw, i did since it's now a 0.5/1/1.5/2 sec).


I will always listen to your critics and lower dwn numbers which are too imbalanced. I am more the type gaining much, but losing also much like for the armor + MR bonus spell but with a 40% MS AS slow (again 410MS with a 40% lose means 246 MS= it means you move like a dog courrier xD)
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