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 [SM] Hidan - Concept

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Phoenix-
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PostSubject: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:45 pm

I was bored and after i saw GodScreams Hidan i got inspired a bit, this is only a concept so do not expect too accurate numbers. He is pretty straight forward, basicly all he needs is health and mby some defense. If he manages to get both he can protect his entire team, strong aoe spells can drop his health fast but also can be used to take the max from his ultimate.

His items should involve Kaguya's and health items, but as his spells do not depend on items he can be buildt to counter the enemy team and get increased focus by building items like radiance or sage scroll.

STR: 25+2.9
AGI: 10+1.3
INT: 15+1.6

MS: 315~325
Base-Atk: 46~57

Intended Roles: Tank/Support

Quote :
Sanjin no Ogama
Triple-Bladed Scythe, Hidan swings his scythe dealing major damage to him and close enemies.

Deals 100/200/300/400 damage to Hidan and nearby enemies(physical)
Enemy unit's movementspeed also will be slowed by 20%
MC: 105
CD: 10
AoE: 330

Quote :
Prayer
Hidan bids his god Jashin for more strength

During this spell Hidan takes 65/60/55/50% of the damage dealt to him directly and the rest at the end of the spell as health loss(pure but does not trigger any kind of damage related things like Kaguya's or Dagger).

Lasts 3/4/5/6 seconds.
MC: 50/70/90/110
Cd: 42/34/26/18

Quote :
Sadism (Passive/Aura) [toggle]
Hidan enjoys pain.

Turned on:
Damage dealt to allies in 650 AoE is partly reduced and taken by Hidan instead.

Hidan takes 4/8/12/16% of the damage that would be taken by nearby allies.
Turns off when Hidan's health drops below 10% automaticly
Damage taken by Hidan is dealt by the hero attacking the ally as pure damage.

Turned off:
Hidan gains 1/2/3/4 health regeneration.

Quote :
Blood Ritual
Hidan creates a link to his enemy, sharing wounds and pain.

Deals 80% of the damage Hidan takes to the target unit, damage type is pure.
Relates to the damage taken before "Prayer"//Is not triggered by the health loss at the end of "Prayer"
Lasts for 3/4/5 seconds.
Cooldown: 90/75/60 seconds
Range: 500
Mc: 150


Last edited by Phoenix- on Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:03 pm; edited 7 times in total
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GodScream
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:55 pm

Hmmm quite simple compared to what i made ^^ But the passive is interesting. I may copy it in my build instead of splash damage but only for allies heroes.

Indeed, nuking on many units and especially for creeps and summons would hurt hidan too much (just look a kanku ultitpuppet sharing damage, if you have many creeps in aoe and you dop Dei's bomb, puppet is insta destroyed)

Edit: check up changelog of my hidan where i used your passive instead old one but only for ally HEROES.
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Cut Chemist
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:11 am

#1. Only a % of the damage should spill, working like Centaur's Double Edge in Dota. Also, in my opinion make it pull Hidan's target a short distance towards him. Obviously, not completely like Pudge hook, but a decent amount.

#2. So, technically Hidan takes no damage until the spell ends?

#3. It is kinda the opposite of my Hidan's passive, so interesting. Make it so Hidan is able to toggle the aura on and off, and I think a blanket damage reduction spell is too strong, maybe make it only apply to physical damage or something. Otherwise, it becomes way too easy for Hidan to just go damage mitigation aura build with this spell, ac, and vlad's.

#4. I would scale the range, since 500 at level 1 is pretty OP.
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Phoenix-
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:33 am

#1 It's physical damage anyways so the spell will be most effective in midgame when he has some health and the enemies won't have much defense.

#2 It's like the buff from Kunkka's ultimate, take 50% damage now, take the rest later as non lethal damage. Hidan still will take the full amount but he can survive the phase where most of the damage is dealt, his team should have taken out at least 2 important heroes by the end of the spell.

#3 Def will reduce the damage Hidan's allies take and therefore the damage transfered to Hidan and dealt by his ultimate. Anyways made it a toggle.

#4 The range is intended to be high enough to cast it on runaways and heroes hiding at the tower because Hidan does not have any slow/stun or any kind of direct range attack.
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Cut Chemist
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:14 pm

#1.Physical damage is most effect in the early game, and given the spell's cheap costs it's obvious the hero's spells are going to be leveled as such... w, e, w, r, w, t, w, etc. The 1st spell will wreck people in the laning phase, since in the mid-game they'll have the items to evade Hidan. And I remind you that unless you're planning this hero to farm a blink, you need some kind of spell that allows him to catch up to his target or something.

#2. Kinda a powerful buff to have on a non-ultimate spell. Not sure I like it.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:52 pm

#1 Even though the physical damage is most efficient in earlygame by damaging himself hidan has to calculate before using it and level spells more like w r w e r t w e r w t ... to balance the self damage and his health growth.

#2 It only delays the damage Hidan takes, it requires timing to use it in combination with his 3rd spell to protect his team from AoE spells. If he uses it careless he is likely to die, it requires teamwork, you protect them (and take more damage) while your team takes out important heroes. If they are successful you can regenerate because the remaining heroes should not be able to kill you, if they are not some of your mates are probably dead and you'll have to flee.

Classifying him as initiator might have been wrong, he is more like a counter to the enemies initiator and aoe heroes, by using his ultimate on the enemies main carry he can deal significant damage if timed well. So i guess he is more like tank/supporter.

As there is no maximum distance on his ultimate he can use his first spell to kill runaways or get the attention of creeps/tower. If he ganks he'll usually have someone on the line with a slow or stun and thats all he needs to hit 1-2 times and use his first spell, ofc works the other way round if a mate comes to gank on his line.


P.S.: By getting some health items he can force the enemy to make a move if he just continues moving towards them and then take advantage with ultimate etc., if they chose to retreat they will take damage from heroes with ranged nukes which are protected by his passive.
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Cut Chemist
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:47 pm

The hero still needs either a slow or a MS boost to be effective, otherwise he will literally be too easy to kite.

Anyway, I would scale the % of damage reduction for the 2nd spell, as well as increase the CD to be something more similar to Lich's CD for Sacrifice.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:35 pm

The lack of slow/ms boost can be fixed by giving him a higher base ms like ~315-325

-scaled his selfbuff
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:23 am

Phoenix- wrote:
The lack of slow/ms boost can be fixed by giving him a higher base ms like ~315-325

-scaled his selfbuff

Trust me he needs something. Otherwise the opposing team isn't going to bother going near him. IMO, make prayer provide a minor MS boost.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:41 am

Seems you added like me an hp regen which helps surviving and more tanking Razz
But i think that playing this hidan is way too dangerous. Ok he have potential but you also have to think about newbies/noobs. It's the best heroe to feed with... purposely or without purpose
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:58 am

As long as you keep your aura turned off you are not at a bigger risk of feeding than anyone else, it's all about the timing and some teamplay. But as he needs the right timing so does the enemy team to not kill one of their mates or themselves.


He is not the type of guy to get lots of kills in earlygame without a mate having a stun or slow, but if the enemy is trying to attack him he still can get away if necessary or more likely, turn the odds against the enemy with his spells.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:09 pm

Im mainly talking about the 400 self damage (with 10sec CD btw) and aura.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:45 pm

You can toggle the aura and the self damage can be adjusted by leveling the spell fitting to one's health. Just because it's low cd and low mana it doesn't mean that it should be spammed.

Taking advantage of the synergy might be more important on him than it might be on other heroes and as AoS-maps are allways situational you have to adjust your skills and your strategy to your enemy.


If you are laned vs a nuker and under the risk of lots of ganks, you can leave his first spell aside in the beginning and focus on his selfbuff and use the turned off aura for regaining health. Get Reminisce as first item and use your strong regeneration and damage block to start harassing and counter the damage you take from your first spell.

If you are playing a aggressive pusher strategy, get yourself a bottle and try to rush Tobi's Mask, take advantage of the defense it grants to reduce the damage you take from your nuke and the lifesteal to regain health. Use your aura and Tobi's lifesteal to make your creeps survive and then use them to help you fighting your opponent or if he retreats, kill the tower and gain some advantage as your creeps get stronger. Leave your selfbuff on lvl 1, ask a mate to help you with a stun if necessary in earlygame. By the time you have your ultimate you can combine it with your first spell to make your enemy take the double damage and killing him if executed right.

If the enemy has a strong nuker like Shodaime or Temari, you can focus on getting Kaguyas, primary skill your aura and selfbuff, get stats instead of your nuke. Try to force them to use their nuke on as much targets as possible as well as yourself, use Kaguya's to let them feel much more pain than you did, and your selfbuff for surviving.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:52 am

Yeah you are rigth your hiddan is Support/Tank.

He need some kind of small incapatating effect to support his team or good movility. If he gets disabled he wont do that much for his team while the other team get the full advantage of the moment.

He need something that could give him real precense.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:01 pm

Well... since everyone seems to wish for it, i gonna add a minor slow to his nuke, should be enough if combined with high base ms.


Still it does not fit good into this concept in my oppinion.

If he gets focused by disables he just should get CA as he can use everything it grants.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:12 pm

I'm not a fan of the slow being added to the nuke.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:45 pm

I am not a fan of adding a slow or a ms buff to him at all but everyone seems to want me to do something like that.

He has high base ms, he can keep up with his team as good as other Tanks and he is not meant to disable the enemy in any way, his aura and his ultimate are quite strong anyways.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:04 pm

Phoenix- wrote:
I am not a fan of adding a slow or a ms buff to him at all but everyone seems to want me to do something like that.

He has high base ms, he can keep up with his team as good as other Tanks and he is not meant to disable the enemy in any way, his aura and his ultimate are quite strong anyways.

The thing is that right now you're not going to play him as an initiator. You're going to end up playing him one of, if not, the primary focus of farm on a team. He needs too many items to both get in position to use his spells, along with actually survive the encounter.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:16 pm

I corrected his role to tank/support quite some time ago...
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:34 pm

Except, tank is not a primary role, ever in an AoS. It is for MMO's or RPG, but not in AoS games. The hero still needs a lot of farm, which basically makes him equivalent to a hard carry, or at best a semi-carry, in a line-up.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:18 pm

Never said that tank is a primary role.

He works by increasing the effective health of units around him by up to ~20% (1/0.84 if i'm right) as long as he has enough health. And he can increase his effective health for a short time by up to 100%. So if he gets Reminisce he should have around 1,1k health at level 7 with effective health somewhere around 2k (not calculating armor etc. which does not kick in with his aura) while he has his buff. Reminisce is a common item among tanks and does not require lot of farm.


It's true that his skillset grows stronger as he gets more health which gives it a carry part, but it's neither ineffective without farm nor will he be able to carry his aura can only increase the effective health by 20% at max.


I may repeat myself by saying this: Even in other AoS there are heroes that are more difficult to play but those are usually more difficult to counter if played good,too.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:53 pm

Quote :
tank/support quite some time ago...

Huh? I thought that was you stating his role(s)...

Anyway, the hero having high base move speed needs to go if you're adding a MS boost. And actually the hero is very ineffective without farm. He needs mobility items to get him into a fight, along with get in position to use his spells. He also needs a lot of Hp increasing/hp regen in order to not have to run back to base after each time fight, and finally the hero's build is maximized by buying luxury items. Therefore, the hero should be scaled in a way that limits his early/mid game or should have his abilities hit the ceiling in the late game.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:29 am

As he is not supposed to make the first move, but counter the move an enemy he does not need more mobility than some Shinobi Treads or Idate's Sandals like any other Hero gets during early/midgame. He also can use basic boots until he has Reminisce.

Once he has Reminisce, which again equals the basic farm of any hero in earlygame, he will have a regeneration of at least 7Hp/sec, and up to +4Hp/sec depending on his toggle.
Considering the fact that he will most likely have bought a few Ninja Pouch's in the earlygame he can build those step by step into Shodaime's Necklace, the most expensive single part is the final recipe with 900g while everything else is 550g or lower, so each single part can be farmed easily. Shodaime's Necklace also fits perfectly as grants a nice health regeneration aura and has an aoe-heal, both increasing his capacity to keep mates from taking too much damage to continue pushing.


#1: ANY heroes effectivity is maximized by buying luxury items, as it is what 'luxury' stands for.
#2: He has passive granting him regeneration
#3: His first spell loses a lot effectivity during mid-game resulting in around 50% reduction
#4: His third spell is limited by the health/defense of his allies and the damage of his enemies
#5: Hidan takes up to 100%(self)+4*20%(others)= 180% damage; using his selfbuff he can tank up to 200% damage for a short time, so he can protect his team from any spell that he would survive with turned off toggle. He protects his team while his team has to kill the enemy, works pretty much similiar on any other supporter.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:14 pm

#1. Actually, no. Heroes with non-scaling abilities don't benefit as greatly. Your hero has scaling abilities, so he is far better off.

#2. Passive 4 Hp regen is nothing beyond the laning phase.

#3. Nope, since you can never have 5 farmed heroes it will be effective on the 4-5 and possibly the 3.

#4. It is limited as you said, but it also scales upwards, only getting better over the course of the game.

Eitherway, you look at it. Your hero can snowball early or be played as a late game carry type hero, so that should be changed.


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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:14 pm

#1 He would not be the first hero in the game which has scaling abilities even though he is not supposed to carry, for example Raikage has an open-end directly scaling passive which allows him to deal increased damage, while Hidan's carrying abilities are limited by his mates.

#2 4Hp/sec alone is nothing but as he gets more strength and fitting items he it can easily reach 11-15Hp/sec being feed.

#3 Ofc. it depends on the heroes, it will be more effective on low-defense heroes like disablers which usually have around 30-40% while being less effective vs agility carries with 50-60% defense.

#4 It gets better if we take a look at absolute numbers but it will allways be limited if taking a look at the relative numbers. He is not able to increase the effective health by more than 20% no matter how farmed he gets. Real carry abilities are only limited by the carries farm and by nothing else.


He is not able to carry the game more than any other str-supporter, a (semi-carry) with similiar farm and lifesteal or a stun before he can cast his ultimate will easily kill him. The only condition making him able to carry is being feed/fighting an underfarmed enemy but this also applies to any other hero.
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