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 [SM] Hidan - Concept

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Cut Chemist
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:36 pm

He's not really that killable late game, unless you're braindead while playing him. He only takes 50% damage late game for 6 seconds during teamfights. That's huge in terms of going head to head with carry heroes and seeing how his spell-set is one that is designed to let him snowball in the early to mid game, that won't be too difficult.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:22 pm

He only takes 50% directly but the rest of the damage is dealt later so if he is underfarmed he will be at 1 Hp which is being dead with any type of attack.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:29 pm

Phoenix- wrote:
He only takes 50% directly but the rest of the damage is dealt later so if he is underfarmed he will be at 1 Hp which is being dead with any type of attack.

We were talking about his late game, right? And about how he can't carry? In the late game the hero can survive against any carry in a teamfight as long as you position yourself to hit one spell and if you use all of his spells well... then most likely that carry will die while the opposing team is trying to focus you.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:57 pm

A carry should not be the first to enter the fight so Hidan should not be able to cast his ultimate at the carry right away, and as initiators usually have at least one strong disable like a stun or taunt which is in most cases AoE. If executed the right way Hidan will either not protect his allies (toggle off) or take a considerable amount of damage before he can act.

Even though it does not seem to be much common in nwu, carry heroes often work good when building lifesteal (most carries in dota are buildt that way) and Sandaime's Helmet or Jashin's Rage combined with superior DPS is enough to counter Hidan.

A hard-carry usually builds Gelel Stone anyways to prevent disables, so it can be used to counter Hidan's ultimate,too.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:07 pm

There always a counter to the spells and characters described ... at least for ppl enough smart to think about it.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:27 pm

Phoenix- wrote:
A carry should not be the first to enter the fight so Hidan should not be able to cast his ultimate at the carry right away, and as initiators usually have at least one strong disable like a stun or taunt which is in most cases AoE. If executed the right way Hidan will either not protect his allies (toggle off) or take a considerable amount of damage before he can act.

Even though it does not seem to be much common in nwu, carry heroes often work good when building lifesteal (most carries in dota are buildt that way) and Sandaime's Helmet or Jashin's Rage combined with superior DPS is enough to counter Hidan.

A hard-carry usually builds Gelel Stone anyways to prevent disables, so it can be used to counter Hidan's ultimate,too.

A carry in the late game will usually enter the fight first, if not within ~1-2 seconds of intiation, because they have the farm to survive the opposing team taking shots at them.

Also, if they use Gelel and for 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 / 5 seconds they are magic immune. Hidan can still use his Q spell every 10 seconds and hit them. If Hidan's played as a 1 on a team, and this one should be, building physical dps carry items will allow him to easily content if not best a lot of carries, baring a hex. And once their Gelel duration is over he can ulti the carry, or he could have just ulted another hero will going toe to toe with their carry.

Also, from what I've seen playing/watching Dota 2, in this meta, lifesteal builds are only popular on frail carry heroes and on a team that expects the game to go 50+ minutes. Most people in Dota 2 would rather get crit, since it is a little OP right now and/or a desolater since it does work in non-late game strats. Anyway, there's nothing stopping Hidan, and honestly Hidan should pick up this item anyway, from picking up lifesteal since it can only help his build.

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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:09 am

1/ Damage is sufficient. I'd rather have Hidan be another Juugo-nuke combination but with a semi-passive + damage buff as Hidan really doesn't have any special moves.
2/Good concept but make it like Juugos damage buff. The more people he kills, he gains HP. +20/+30/+40/+50 and recieve health loss because the prayer Hidan uses forces him to have self-mutiliation.
3/ Bad concept of a passive. You want Hidan to take more damage than he can give? Honestly, I'd consider this thing. 'Bleed' - Gives him an orb effect-mark, giving Hidan more AS/MS near the lacerated target with a chance to slow (maim) the person. In reality, Hidan is a STR-Brawn character who should be slow. *Make this one like track* Make it have a Tayuya flute AOE (for allies)effect only if he's marked.
4/ Possibly make it similar to Ankos ult. The mark itself should damage both the user and the enemy if they are in close range of each other. 'Self-Mutilation'. I kinda stole this one from NVB but it honestly makes sense. OR you could make this have a 1-2 second delay on the person you use it on. Create a 1-2 second stun to create psynergy with 1/.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:08 pm

#2: Juugo's toogle is a DPS/carry passive, this Hidan is not intended to carry.
#3: Again, he is not supposed to be a DPS/carry, he is supposed to tank and protect his team.
#4: His first spell damages himself, adding self-damage is only a good idea if the spell itself is very strong and needs a drawback. Self-damaging ultimate is what everyone else suggests and i find it boring and uncreative, thats why i chose to make it this way. Also this spell is not supposed to have a nuke potential.


He is neither supposed to work by nukes nor by being a DPS/carry. Adding him allows you to add heroes with low str to your lineup and send make the enemy hurt himself by channeling the damage he deals to him or one of his mates. Getting a Kaguya's allows you to counter their initiator if timed right and can turn a battle around.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:12 pm

In this case, you are just trying to make him a second Asuma. He has no way to taunt them. He can't even initiate like Asuma can with this current tank build. Do you really think the other team would focus the tank? And this leads to my condescending question, who would focus the HP-buffed tanked? Not to mention that this passive would have little effect. I would consider Hidan a carry-DPS nuker if anything because in the anime he is known to go beserk. If you honestly think Hidan should be a tank with no disables then its time to revise your current concept because what you built was more or less an INT support build. You would want to make more heroes be alike so they can be countered by others.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:37 am

Actually the passive helps, it increases the effective health of a mate by up to 20% (1/0.84), as he takes more damage through this passive he needs to be STR, except you give him a stronger selfbuff. He is no initiator and if the team stays in a formation there is no need to attack him directly. he is supposed to counter AoE damage and deal the damage he takes to an enemy hero with his ultimate, if at mele he range he can deal ~1,8x damage with his first spell.

It doesn't matter much if it matches the imagination of everyone but rather if there is synergy and balance. In this case quite much every spell works with every other spell:

1+2
1+4
2+3
2+4
3+4
2+3+4
1+2+4
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:37 am

There's also the fact that the script for that passive will probably be glitchy. Plus you're making him similar to Asuma. Tanks are generally suppposed to have mana-consuming moves like Jiraiya/Suigetsu. If anything, I'd stick Hidan with 1 nuke, 2 passives and a pure damage ult because again Hidan himself seems like a tank-carry like Suigetsu.
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PostSubject: Re: [SM] Hidan - Concept   Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:08 am

I know the wc3 engine myself and i do not see any reason why it should be glitchy.

And he is not similiar to Asuma at all...

Asuma is a tank/initiator(/carry) - Hidan is a tank/supporter
Asuma has an cleavelike passive - Hidan has a passive/aura protecting mates on the cost of his own life
Asuma can force people to attack him - Hidan tanks indirect
Asuma has 2 strong disables - Hidan has none
Asuma gets stronger each hit he takes - Hidan only can deal 80% (100% with Kaguya's) of the damage he took.
Asuma's selfbuff grants strong defense vs. physical attacks - Hidan's selfbuff delays the damage of any attacktype.


Tanks are not supposed to have mana consuming spells at all, the mana consumption depends on the strength of the spell and the basic manapool of the hero. Jiraya and Suigetsu have initiator spells: Slow/Stun/High Damage thats why their spells are mana intensive. If u take a look at Dota tanks you'll see that there are a lot having low manacost.


Again: This thread is for discussing the pro and cons of this build, regarding synergy and balance and things like 'I don't like him cause he's no carry' etc. is not helpful.

Skillsets can have very different roles even though they show the same hero, i remember a IM-nuker Gai made by Stickface to prove this.
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