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 [AR] Yagura, Yondaime Mizukage - Carry version

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Westfield
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PostSubject: [AR] Yagura, Yondaime Mizukage - Carry version   Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:21 pm

Quote :
Quote :

Yagura
Yondaime Mizukage



__Strength__|_Agility_|_Intelligence_


__________



_16 + 1.5_|_26 + 2.3_|_19 + 2.0_



Advance Statistics



Affiliation: Shinobi Alliance
Damage: 39-49
Armor: 1.5
Movespeed: 275
Attack Range: 550
Role: Hard-Carry / Ganker



Quote :


Suiton: Water Mirror Reflection

The user creates a large, flat, circular pool of water in front of their opponent. Its surface acts like a mirror, perfectly reflecting the attacking
targets.

Effect: Upon using the spell on an area, all enemy units who were in it at the time will get attacked by their own copy. Reflections deal 50% of Yagura's base damage. Additionally, while those copies are alive, enemy units which are under this spell will get slowed by 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 % MS.

Spell type: AoE Target
Mana cost: 100
Cooldown: 16 seconds
Cast range: 600
AoE: 500
Duration: 5 seconds
Note:
*Water reflections cannot be destroyed, targeted or affected in any way.
Quote :


Coral Palm

As a Three-Tails Jinchuuriki, Yagura is able to partially release his bijuu's powers.

Effect: Upon toogling on the spell, with each attack Yagura will deal additional 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 Magical Damage through his ranged attacks, however the enemy unit which is attacked by Yagura will have his HP regeneration increased by 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 HP per second for the next 5 seconds. The regeneration starts only if Yagura isn't attacking that specific target for more than 2 seconds.

Spell type: Toogle On / Off
Mana cost: 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 per strike
Cooldown: N/A
Cast range: N/A
AoE: N/A
Duration:
Note:
*If the enemy unit affected by this spell holds any of Yagura's debuffs, the regeneration won't start until the debuff fades out.
Quote :


Mizukage's War Staff

Yagura was seen using a war-staff in conjuction with his Water Release Ninjutsu.

Effect: Upon activation, Yagura will rotate his war-staff around him dealing initial 60 / 80 / 100 / 120 Magical Damage and stealing 2 / 4 / 6 / 8 % AS per enemy hero around him. Maximum number of AS that can be stolen is 10 / 20 / 30 / 40%.

Spell type: Active
Mana cost: 110 / 120 / 130 / 140
Cooldown: 15 seconds
Cast range: N/A
AoE: 400
Duration: 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 seconds
Note:
*AS steal only works against heroes.
Quote :


Three Tails: Shell Spear

Yagura is able to fully transform into a bijuu, wrecking havoc on the battlefield.

Effect: Upon activation, Yagura will transform into a giant turtle-like beast, which will resemble a spiked-formed ball. During this, he will jump up into the air and will start rolling in there for the next 3 seconds, being immune to magical attacks. During the jump moment, all enemy units who are near Yagura in 250 AoE will get pushed back by 300 units. During the next 3 seconds, Yagura will gain a sub-spell (AoE target), which will enable him to target a relevant point on the ground to which he will start rolling towards on a 700 MS. During the roll, Yagura will push all enemy units away from him, dealing 75 / 150 / 200 Damage and consequently laying a debuff on them. The pushback lasts for 1.50 seconds.

Spell type: Active / AoE Target
Mana cost: 175  
Cooldown: 50 seconds
Cast range: 1200
AoE: 300
Duration: 3 seconds / until cancelled
Note:
*Any other action during the roll will break the spell's effect.
*Some of you may notice that this spell resembles Barathrum's charge from Dota, the only difference between being that the spell is using the AoE component instead of Bara's single target, as well as a limiting factor in regards to cast range. Additionally Yagura gains a bonus magic immunity which he can use to his advantage at a point.
*You're not able to use any items, spells, movement or anything while in the air


Last edited by Westfield on Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:33 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Phoenix-
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PostSubject: Re: [AR] Yagura, Yondaime Mizukage - Carry version   Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:49 pm

#3 Kinda high MC for such a spell and 8% AS stolen is like half of a Glove.

#4 Don't we have enough Dash spells?
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PostSubject: Re: [AR] Yagura, Yondaime Mizukage - Carry version   Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:50 pm

YAGURA :3

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Westfield
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PostSubject: Re: [AR] Yagura, Yondaime Mizukage - Carry version   Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:43 pm

Phoenix- wrote:
#3 Kinda high MC for such a spell and 8% AS stolen is like half of a Glove.

#4 Don't we have enough Dash spells?
3: Well the spell's effects are kind of strong if you think about it. The percentage works only on hero units and only for a short amount of time, so I reckon it should be fine

4. Well, this dash is kind of different from the others, as it serves both as an escape mechanism and a ganking tool. Plus half of the heroes which got a dash in NWU are gonna be revamped
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PostSubject: Re: [AR] Yagura, Yondaime Mizukage - Carry version   Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:59 pm

#2 can be insanely strong, better tone down the damage and the heal, because 1000 damage for 120 mana is unbalanced even with the drawback of the heal.

#3 AoE stat steal is mostly nonesense, you can hardly create an average situation and as ranged hero your desire is not to be surrounded by 5 heroes.
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Cut Chemist
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PostSubject: Re: [AR] Yagura, Yondaime Mizukage - Carry version   Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:40 pm

Phoenix- wrote:
#2 can be insanely strong, better tone down the damage and the heal, because 1000 damage for 120 mana is unbalanced even with the drawback of the heal.

#3 AoE stat steal is mostly nonesense, you can hardly create an average situation and as ranged hero your desire is not to be surrounded by 5 heroes.
With 400 Radius the spell's AS steal effect will be fine, and in many ways you're able to use the spell to initially steal attack speed, then escape with your ultimate. Additionally, the hero isn't gonna be fighting alone, due to its fragility. Also, it works as a way to balance the hero, you don't just want him to get attack speed so safely when the hero already has an escape mechanism.

#2. Reduce bonus damage to ~200 at max level. I think the heal should occur over a longer duration, and in terms of mana cost, scale to be maybe 30 / 35  / 40 / 45 or something.
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PostSubject: Re: [AR] Yagura, Yondaime Mizukage - Carry version   Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:09 pm

1. When i meant unique was about making something originall not just kinda copy paste TB old skill

2. Why the target should regenerate his Hp, i dont quite get why

3. Ok you can out carry enemys with this, but why it should be like an AoE hability i mean, he is ranged yet you want him to be in the fray even with his fragility

4. Ok looks like a survival skill in some weird maner, personally not a fan of it and about what you said about the revamps, that doesnt mean that they can be reworked with jump habilitys.

3rd and 4th looks like initiating skills, i get the point why stick said it should be fine those 2 skill, but are not that great.
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PostSubject: Re: [AR] Yagura, Yondaime Mizukage - Carry version   Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:40 pm

Lowered down damage for second.

Natsu,

1. Current TB's first spell is a single target slow, while this version is AoE based, so considering it a copy is just wrong. And in terms of repetitiveness in NWU this spell is unique

2. This is an Oracle's version of third spell, but instead it is incorporated through ranged attacks. It's sort of a double-edged sword spell, where you have to burst down the target as soon as possible, otherwise he will just regenerate the whole thing back.

3. I could potentially change the spell to AoE target so that Yagura wouldn't have to actually get into a middle of the fight, but come from a side, so the ultimate potential of this spell would come from the right positioning OR increase the area of effect spell.

4. My initial idea was to replicate Barathrum's charge, but a nerfed version as I incorporated it in an "ultimate" form. And if you look at the lightning panda in Dota, the spell is kind of similar, instead this one has a Rubik's first spell's feature where you sort of get some time to position yourself, instead of the enemy unit. I think this is something unique as it could provide lots of strategies both on the lane / ganks and team fights.
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PostSubject: Re: [AR] Yagura, Yondaime Mizukage - Carry version   Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:25 pm

Westfield wrote:
Lowered down damage for second.

Natsu,

1. Current TB's first spell is a single target slow, while this version is AoE based, so considering it a copy is just wrong. And in terms of repetitiveness in NWU this spell is unique

2. This is an Oracle's version of third spell, but instead it is incorporated through ranged attacks. It's sort of a double-edged sword spell, where you have to burst down the target as soon as possible, otherwise he will just regenerate the whole thing back.

3. I could potentially change the spell to AoE target so that Yagura wouldn't have to actually get into a middle of the fight, but come from a side, so the ultimate potential of this spell would come from the right positioning OR increase the area of effect spell.

4. My initial idea was to replicate Barathrum's charge, but a nerfed version as I incorporated it in an "ultimate" form. And if you look at the lightning panda in Dota, the spell is kind of similar, instead this one has a Rubik's first spell's feature where you sort of get some time to position yourself, instead of the enemy unit. I think this is something unique as it could provide lots of strategies both on the lane / ganks and team fights.
1. Current doesnt mean that he had that skill on aoe because i perfectly remember it, so calling it unique is pointless when it was already thinked and used, just like that, dont try to charm the words to sound it like its something new.

2. My main problem is that you cant bring something of your own a 100% you are heavily using a 90% of the dota skill instead of using a 10% of the skill. Which stick does or i do it my self.

3. About this the effects are not bad are unique but i dont see yagura using his war staff in shuck a maner, i mean like some magicall stick to obtain bonuses from the enemys.

4. Yeah but no yeah, not big fan of it personally, btw you forgot to mention what does the debuff he lays on the enemys.
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PostSubject: Re: [AR] Yagura, Yondaime Mizukage - Carry version   Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:53 pm

1. I'm talking about NWU right now - there is no similar spell in the game as of now, so that's what makes it unique. And frankly I don't understand your point here, yes it was used in Dota, but no all players that play Dota are into NWU, so you can't really predict if they've seen this spell or not. And yes the spell was used at one point, but that time is long passed now. As a matter of fact, your current idea with the reflections (single target) is more of a copy than mine, because you can still see a similar play style sort of

2. Lol you're contradicting yourself here. The mechanics in my idea are completely different from the one in Dota, as it offers different play-style and hero role. And having a look at your suggestions, they are pretty much a copy of Dota design - even talking about Yagura when I mentioned his reflections, as well as his ultimate which is basically a copy Venomancer's nova, but with just different effects. All your suggestions, by looking at them right now, don't offer anything new as well. They resemble a lot of Dota designs...

You've stated yourself that its ok to use a spell for as long as it serves different purpose when it comes to strategy, so here it is. In Dota this spell is used both on allies and enemies, so it has sort of a support role on it, while in this idea its a pure burst carry tool

3. Now you're not happy with the theme, rather than mechanics. It can always be changed - considering Yagura used his staff with his Water Ninjutsu, we can inject some kind of water strike or something similar which would highlight that fact.


4. The debuff is a pushback, like Bara's one. It's considered to be like a mini-stun


Just by looking at how NWU progresses, as it holds a number of broken chars, and the ones which keep getting released don't really reflect your views on "smart designs" so to speak, as the designs clearly fail. What I'm suggesting is a stable character which won't need any kind of revamp in the long run. I'm really frustrated by your words here that I "repeat" Dota spells, that is just ridiculous, I dont know how many times I have to repeat myself here. Frankly speaking I got no idea why Muzk isn't expressing any views on the subject, it's just a blind guidance that is in play I reckon...
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PostSubject: Re: [AR] Yagura, Yondaime Mizukage - Carry version   Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:18 pm

Natsu wrote:
1. When i meant unique was about making something originall not just kinda copy paste TB old skill

2. Why the target should regenerate his Hp, i dont quite get why

3. Ok you can out carry enemys with this, but why it should be like an AoE hability i mean, he is ranged yet you want him to be in the fray even with his fragility

4. Ok looks like a survival skill in some weird maner, personally not a fan of it and about what you said about the revamps, that doesnt mean that they can be reworked with jump habilitys.

3rd and 4th looks like initiating skills, i get the point why stick said it should be fine those 2 skill, but are not that great.
#2. The reason it is does, is often you're able to make a spell deal more damage than a traditional nuke that does for instance 100 / 150 / 200 / 250. When you add the healing effect you can make your nuke deal more like 120 / 200 / 280 / 360 damage. It is something that has been used in both HoN and Dota.

#3. It's AoE so you can actually gain attack speed quickly. Also, what's with you and Phoenix? The spell doesn't say you have to be like within 275 range for it to work, it has a 400 radius.

#4. This isn't an initiating spell, it could work if you're ganking a lone unit. But, jumping into an enemy team with this spell first, especially with its only effects being pushback and low damage isn't wise.
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PostSubject: Re: [AR] Yagura, Yondaime Mizukage - Carry version   Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:22 am

You can view this hero as Akasha from one perspective (which sort of holds similar mechanics to this build).
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PostSubject: Re: [AR] Yagura, Yondaime Mizukage - Carry version   Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:26 am

#2 Know that i remember loord zalforis of hon with that mechanich, but i dont feel that kind of skill fit on Yagura i mean, why when he have healed some one, naruto was just inmobilized with the coral palm

#3 Hero with range and even the ones that are builded like carrys are away from the range of this skills what will be the poing stealing the as from 2 or 3 target that arent melee carrys in those cases.

#4 Seems that you dont know NWU players if they see viable building him tanky they will do it and with his agility grow he will obtain good defense plus other items that give him sustain.

The point is i dont wanna see it as a dota hero that the main issue, that happend when i read stick suggestion they dont have any resemblance with dota heros. Even if he uses one skill, in the whole kit you wont notice it.
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PostSubject: Re: [AR] Yagura, Yondaime Mizukage - Carry version   Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:47 am

#2. It's mainly done to be a unique nuke, imo. I think it fits fine. It is not as if anyone cares too much about the barely noticeable jinchuuriki.

#3. You don't need to be an anti-carry. Stealing attack speed from any of their units is going to be useful because you'll be dealing more damage faster. And if there happens to be heroes that actually need their attack speed, all the better.

#4. He will not be tanky, unless you literally go vanguard, heart, and 1 more item that grants strength or hp. 16 base strength with 1.5 growth.


Anyway... if Natsu wants a more unique 1st spell you could always go for something like...

Yagura places a pool of water at the target area, slowing the move-speed of enemy units. Each time Yagura attacks an enemy within this area, a clone of the attacker will appear dealing a percentage of Yagura's damage to the primary target as well as units nearby.


This way, you still have a similar effect of unattackable clones hitting enemies, only it is initiated by Yagura, as opposed to being automatic. It also has synergy with your 3rd spell because as you attack speed increases you'll be able to make enemies get hit more by the clones, you could also maybe code it so the clones deal a % of your 2nd spell as well for futher synergy.


#2. I still think it is too much level 1 damage for the mana cost, 75 damage for 30 mana. I think your overall heal needs to be higher than the damage being dealt by the nuke, in each instance.

#4. Add a note that you're not able to attack, use items, or use any spells, aside from the sub-spell while in the air.
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PostSubject: Re: [AR] Yagura, Yondaime Mizukage - Carry version   Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:43 pm

2. Again you're referring to the theme. Like stick said, it doesn't really matter as his agenda hasnt' been revealed as much as others. From my perspective about the theme of this spell is that Yagura uses a Water type Bijuu, and that attack kind of uses the living energy as it spawns tentacles and shit so to speak, which kind of capable of healing

4. Exactly, his stats aren't that high, it will be foolish to go tank for him, no matter what his armor is. Danzo gets a heck loads of armor through his passive and yet you see people go tank on him?


Cut,

There is a good synergy in your example, but I kind of had another idea when making this spell. Here's a second version to avoid Natsu's bs about repetition

Quote :

Suiton: Water Reflection Technique

Effect: After targetting an enemy unit, Yagura will place a debuff on him, which will create a thin circle of water around him. While inside the water circle, all enemy units, including the one who holds a debuff, will get attacked by their own copies dealing 50% of Yagura's base damage and will have thei MS slowed by 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 %. Whenever the unit with the debuff is going, the water circle moves with him. Copies will attack only those people who are in the circle.

Spell type: Target / Unit
Mana cost: 100
Cooldown: 30 seconds
Cast range: 700
AoE: 500
Duration: 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 seconds
Note:
*Copies share Yagura's AS
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PostSubject: Re: [AR] Yagura, Yondaime Mizukage - Carry version   Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:01 pm

Stick tell me the truth you think this suggestion is just fine or is a really good one.

other than that, now we are talking west about uniqueness.
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PostSubject: Re: [AR] Yagura, Yondaime Mizukage - Carry version   Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:14 pm

It's fine, if the necessary changes are made.
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PostSubject: Re: [AR] Yagura, Yondaime Mizukage - Carry version   Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:34 pm

Is replacing an entire spell considered to be a necessary change? Because I think it fits perfectly


About his second: I've increased the HP gain, so it would exceed the damage dealt
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PostSubject: Re: [AR] Yagura, Yondaime Mizukage - Carry version   Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:41 pm

Ok west you good your answer there in term of fine and really good one Stick recognises that your suggestion can be usable but there are others that are even better.
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PostSubject: Re: [AR] Yagura, Yondaime Mizukage - Carry version   Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:07 pm

I've seen 2 so far which is mine and Eol's, what are the other ones?
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PostSubject: Re: [AR] Yagura, Yondaime Mizukage - Carry version   Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:50 am

Natsu wrote:
Okay, West you good your answer there in term of fine and really good one Stick recognizes that your suggestion can be usable but there are others that are even better.
If you're referring to the one you posted for Eol, a while back, West's is just as good. The only other one that I guess you're referring to is hangun's?
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PostSubject: Re: [AR] Yagura, Yondaime Mizukage - Carry version   Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:26 am

Yeah, is just that i think is a little bit betta, but i might come with a personal one.
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PostSubject: Re: [AR] Yagura, Yondaime Mizukage - Carry version   Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:24 am

Eol's isn't better, as I said. If West makes the necessary changes, his is a better one, imo.
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