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Natsu
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PostSubject: Video about roles   Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:14 pm

Ok here i leave a vid about hero roles. I think is not completed, but the people could learn a couple of things.

Enjoy it:

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EchoingVoid
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PostSubject: Re: Video about roles   Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:02 am

As far as DotA goes, it IS completed.

When NWU is a dumbed down version of DotA, it's safe to say that this is a complete guide for NWU as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Video about roles   Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:05 am

Nice vid natsu and ofc some noobs dont understand that Nwu is following Dota's synergys and metagame. Soo random statement.
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PostSubject: Re: Video about roles   Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:29 am

EchoingVoid wrote:
As far as DotA goes, it IS completed.

When NWU is a dumbed down version of DotA, it's safe to say that this is a complete guide for NWU as well.

If i told, that the vid is not completed, was because they didnt mentioned Disabler role and nuker role there.

And so the people could know now, supports should need ward the runes.
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PostSubject: Re: Video about roles   Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:16 am

Natsu wrote:
EchoingVoid wrote:
As far as DotA goes, it IS completed.

When NWU is a dumbed down version of DotA, it's safe to say that this is a complete guide for NWU as well.

If i told, that the vid is not completed, was because they didnt mentioned Disabler role and nuker role there.

And so the people could know now, supports should need ward the runes.

support covers disabler.

there isn't a 'nuker' role.

InMemory]Cobain wrote:
Nice vid natsu and ofc some noobs dont understand that Nwu is following Dota's synergys and metagame. Soo random statement.

At the same time there are significant differences that make metagame different. Synergy is better in DotA.
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InMemory]Cobain
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PostSubject: Re: Video about roles   Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:50 am

Quote :
At the same time there are significant differences that make metagame different. Synergy is better in DotA.

The dumbest thing ever, Dota are develop by people who earn money from it, Nwu is made by people who like nwu/coding, compare both are just a retard/random/noob thing that only you can do.
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PostSubject: Re: Video about roles   Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:53 am

EchoingVoid wrote:
Natsu wrote:
EchoingVoid wrote:
As far as DotA goes, it IS completed.

When NWU is a dumbed down version of DotA, it's safe to say that this is a complete guide for NWU as well.

If i told, that the vid is not completed, was because they didnt mentioned Disabler role and nuker role there.

And so the people could know now, supports should need ward the runes.

support covers disabler.

there isn't a 'nuker' role.

InMemory]Cobain wrote:
Nice vid natsu and ofc some noobs dont understand that Nwu is following Dota's synergys and metagame. Soo random statement.

At the same time there are significant differences that make metagame different. Synergy is better in DotA.

No supports only partially disable a target, not completly like Elemental bane, Shadow shaman and Lion those 3 are explamples of disabler.

And talking about nuker role. What about Zeus, Lina, earth shaker, Leshrac, Twin head dragon, etc.

there are a lot of nukers.
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EchoingVoid
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PostSubject: Re: Video about roles   Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:08 am

InMemory]Cobain wrote:
Quote :
At the same time there are significant differences that make metagame different. Synergy is better in DotA.

The dumbest thing ever, Dota are develop by people who earn money from it, Nwu is made by people who like nwu/coding, compare both are just a retard/random/noob thing that only you can do.

typical noob. Typical retard cant use logic either (you've shown that time and time again, in every debate you have with me) Just because someone earns money and someone else doesn't does not mean that what they do cannot be compared.

Olympic sprinter who makes money off Nike advertisements vs best sprinter at the collegiate level.

Or

Vanguard vs Remi, Stout Shield vs Shin Guards, Divine Rapier vs Amen, Blink Dagger vs Yondaime's Kunai, Boots of Travel vs 4th's Legacy, Power Treads vs Shinobi Treads, Phase Boots vs Idate's boots, Sheepstick vs Sage Scroll, Shiva's Guard vs Haku's Armor, Assault Cuirass vs Hokage Armor, Lothar's Edge vs Assassin's Cloak, Radiance vs Solar Blade, Blademail vs Kaguya Armor, Cranium Basher vs Iron Crow, Sange Yasha vs Twin Fangs, Buriza vs Akatsuki Lance, Battlefury vs Silver Hands, MKB vs Conch, Butterfly vs GG Suit, Heart of T vs Onbu Paw, Trinity Booster vs Soul Booster, Euls vs Iron Fan, Dagon vs Karites, Linken's Sphere vs Chakra Armor, Manta Style vs Probagation

Or

Suigetsu vs Old Tidehunter and Beastmaster, Sasuke vs Storm Spirit, Jirobou vs Earth Shaker, Tsunade vs Omniknight and Chen, Kiba vs Lycan, etc.

Can EASILY be compared.

Play on Kira on a name where people can recognize u noob, quit hiding rofl.

Natsu wrote:

No supports only partially disable a target, not completly like Elemental bane, Shadow shaman and Lion those 3 are explamples of disabler.

And talking about nuker role. What about Zeus, Lina, earth shaker, Leshrac, Twin head dragon, etc.

there are a lot of nukers.

? Disablers are also part of support heroes, support includes 'disablers'. Bane, Rhasta, Lion are all support. Lion can be considered roamer/ganker as well.

Zeus ganker/support. Lina is support/ganker. ES is ganker/support/initiation. Leshrac is support/pusher. Twin Head is support/ganker

These roles are under the assumption you're playing at the pro level.
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InMemory]Cobain
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PostSubject: Re: Video about roles   Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:00 am

W.e dude, a retarded noob as you would ever argue with the right points.
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PostSubject: Re: Video about roles   Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:03 am

Quote :
? Disablers are also part of support heroes, support includes 'disablers'. Bane, Rhasta, Lion are all support. Lion can be considered roamer/ganker as well.

Zeus ganker/support. Lina is support/ganker. ES is ganker/support/initiation. Leshrac is support/pusher. Twin Head is support/ganker

These roles are under the assumption you're playing at the pro level.

Not with this again, for you every nuker is a stupid support. C'mon not with this shit again, zeus, lina twin and other guys sucks in late game, those bastards cant be support, cuz they dont have a skills that all the games turn the table in favor of their teams.

In late game zeus is fucked up with good magic resist, that goes to for Lina to and usually supports dont get kills, cuz they arent item dependants. But you can easily get kills with them in early phase of the game and Twin head is an item dependant, his ice it isnt enough to cast his ult, so he need a guinsoo or sumthing that lock his target.

So again, supports arent item dependants.

Maybe i agree with zeus, but just as a ganker he sucks. The only time i saw him a zeus gank, i got the stupid kill, cuz the guy was screaming "throw the stupid shuriken!!!" gankers usually get the kills. Maybe i agree with that zeus is a support, but lina dont.

And there is a reason why Sunsfan didnt mention zeus as a ganker, point for me and even there was a pudge ganking on that vid, with a zeus in a solo lane.
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EchoingVoid
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PostSubject: Re: Video about roles   Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:17 pm

Natsu wrote:
Quote :
? Disablers are also part of support heroes, support includes 'disablers'. Bane, Rhasta, Lion are all support. Lion can be considered roamer/ganker as well.

Zeus ganker/support. Lina is support/ganker. ES is ganker/support/initiation. Leshrac is support/pusher. Twin Head is support/ganker

These roles are under the assumption you're playing at the pro level.

Not with this again, for you every nuker is a stupid support. C'mon not with this shit again, zeus, lina twin and other guys sucks in late game, those bastards cant be support, cuz they dont have a skills that all the games turn the table in favor of their teams.

In late game zeus is fucked up with good magic resist, that goes to for Lina to and usually supports dont get kills, cuz they arent item dependants. But you can easily get kills with them in early phase of the game and Twin head is an item dependant, his ice it isnt enough to cast his ult, so he need a guinsoo or sumthing that lock his target.

So again, supports arent item dependants.

Maybe i agree with zeus, but just as a ganker he sucks. The only time i saw him a zeus gank, i got the stupid kill, cuz the guy was screaming "throw the stupid shuriken!!!" gankers usually get the kills. Maybe i agree with that zeus is a support, but lina dont.

And there is a reason why Sunsfan didnt mention zeus as a ganker, point for me and even there was a pudge ganking on that vid, with a zeus in a solo lane.

Zeus is officially classified by DotA 2 as ganker. But to be perfectly honest, he's not a great hero in the current metagame. He COULD work in global strat, but I don't see much use for him out of it.

Under the assumption that we're talking about competitive play:

Zeus can bring down the hp of a tank late game. You also don't get Scepter on him (which might make you classify him as a 'nuker'), you buy support items such as force staff, jango, or sheepstick. He's also a bottle / ward bitch that roams. The only reason that he was solo mid was probably because he's level dependent. Otherwise he's a weak solo these days with magic wand (which was introduced a long time ago).

Lina doesn't have much late game capability outside of posing a threat to other opposing squishy supports. But her ulti damage is still nothing to laugh, so low hp carries still have to be wary. A stun is a stun, and is still just as useful for it's stun late game. In most cases, you will not build scepter, but instead get forcestaff, blink, or sheepstick. She roams just fine. She's also a ward bitch and should use a bottle.

The usefulness of Zeus/Lina 'turn the tables' enough early-mid game to the point where hopefully they won't have to worry about late game AS MUCH. The phrase 'turn the tables' is very loosely used ... who's to say that 1 stun from Lina that allowed your carry to barely kill the other carry isn't 'turning the tables' in some way? Ancient Apparition is most definitely a support hero, but his usefulness decreases late game as well. His magic damage attack buff isn't an impressive DPS boost late game, people have higher movespeed late game to avoid his slow and stun, and the DPS of his ult tickles late game (unless you hit an enemy support hero with it, because they're usually squishy throughout the game), but the %HP break of his ult still holds true. His strongest phase is the laning phase where he can babysitt or trilane with his stun. He can gank decently as well, when ganking with an ally with a stun since AA's only stun is delayed.

Twin Head is not item dependent at all. Sure his ult does decent damage if they sit on it, but Icepath by itself is sufficient. In team fights there will be plenty of opportunities to pop a well positioned ult, especially if your allies have disables of their own. Otherwise he's fine as support when he just babysits and uses Flames to harass and slow and icepath to disable. Again, you usually do not get scepter on him, but rather Jango, forcestaff, mekasm, or sheepstick. He also buys a lot of wards.

The reason I put sheepstick as the last item everytime is because support heroes might not even obtain sheepstick by the end of the game. This is not uncommon because of the money they spend on couriers, wards, and cheaper items such as jango, mekasm, forcestaff, etc. They will also probably be dieing quite a bit in team fights.

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PostSubject: Re: Video about roles   Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:58 pm

One thing, Pipe can fuck up lina zeus and earthshaker "support hability" Twin head to. But for you if they scale bad on late they dont need taken out of the support list. Especially if they support damaging enemy heros, like zeus, good pipe bye bye hability to dmg a tank. Lina only her stun but the pipe would tank the damage and let the non stuned unit target her so easily and take her down. A support exels in all phases of the game.

Edit: Forgot to mention, if the enemy team get pipe, they would surely pick up a sheep stick, for disabling supporting purposes so that make that necesary is the game went to late.

In other case, i put you true supports that helps his team mates all the game from early to late, with an enemy team piped or not, Shadow Priest, Omniknight and Crystal maiden. Shadow shaman dont deal that much of damage but his fucking heal can always save the ass of a carry and help him to "turn the table" in a bad moment, his ult helps to in any phase of the game. Next Omnikinght, his heal helps in any case of the game and his ult to with that physical damage resistance. For the last one Crystal maiden, even though he cant deal any kind of dmg with a enemy piped team, she can lock one target and slow their as giving her team mates some advantages even piped enemy team.

So there you have and now a hon video with hero roles:

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EchoingVoid
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PostSubject: Re: Video about roles   Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:27 pm

Natsu wrote:

So there you have and now a hon video with hero roles:


when you compare the two videos, the DotA 2 one clearly states all the roles offered in DotA. It made NO indication that it was an 'incomplete' guide, so someone is clearly wrong here.

or

HoN has a different meta game with different heroes.

But I'd still voucher that that dude didn't know what he was talking about. It's a pretty old video, real competitive play has not even started yet for HoN (2009).


Natsu wrote:
One thing, Pipe can fuck up lina zeus and earthshaker "support hability" Twin head to. But for you if they scale bad on late they dont need taken out of the support list. Especially if they support damaging enemy heros, like zeus, good pipe bye bye hability to dmg a tank. Lina only her stun but the pipe would tank the damage and let the non stuned unit target her so easily and take her down. A support exels in all phases of the game.

Edit: Forgot to mention, if the enemy team get pipe, they would surely pick up a sheep stick, for disabling supporting purposes so that make that necesary is the game went to late.

Well first off, Earthshaker isn't 'fucked' by Pipe, he still stuns. But seriously, why not just bring up Orchid, rofl? Oh I silence you, guess what, I don't think you fit the support role anymore, sorry.

Not all supports are equally useful at all stages of the game. Some are definitely more useful than others early on.
Omniknight's shortcomings during early-mid:
1) He is not a carry, obviously
2.) He is not a good ganking semi-carry who does well solo mid. Yet he needs levels badly. Level 2 Degen is useless for helping ganks. Yet you need his heal to be relatively high level as well.
3.) He shouldn't be the hero who soloes the long lane while facing the trilane. No pushing power, no escape mechanism, no disable, no tanking power.
4) If you put him on trilane, viable. However, in term of healing, WL, WD and SP outshine him and more importantly, they are all RANGED with decent attack animation = Lane control. Not to forget all three have stuns/ministuns. Also, exp gain in trilane is incredibly low.
5.) he is also not a good gank support in general. a melee-range slow with no disable. You know for sure ES/Slayer/Sven/VS all would fare better.
6.) Diffusal blade. Btw does this item make him no longer a support hero, according to your logic? It purges off his ult and repel.

Best bet is to put him solo mid anyways, with a surprised strategy to work around him.

No offense but you probably don't watch enough higher level games to know what you're talking about. They don't have to scale late game to be just as useful as they were early-mid, get that out of your head.

Examples of higher level games where they play their roles not as 'nuker', but as supports, babysitters, or roamers. All taken from that $1,000,000 tourny. If you don't watch the videos, at least look at the scoreboard for each one. Just by looking at their builds, you can tell what kind of role they were trying to fulfill (with the exception of where you died so many times that you barely have any items at all).

Look at EHOME's Lina:
http://www.dota2.com/tournaments/international/game/1
Scoreboard: http://www.dota2.com/tournaments/international/gamesummary/1/

Look at EHOME's Lina 2:
http://www.dota2.com/tournaments/international/game/110
Scoreboard: http://www.dota2.com/tournaments/international/gamesummary/110/

Look at Mith-Trust's Leshrac (ES in here too as initiator/babysit/gank):
http://www.dota2.com/tournaments/international/game/15
Scoreboard: http://www.dota2.com/tournaments/international/gamesummary/15/
Looks like pipe didn't do it's job well enough to make them completely useless (Pipe on Tyloo's Beastmaster).

Look at Mith-Trust's Lina:
http://www.dota2.com/tournaments/international/game/11
Scoreboard: http://www.dota2.com/tournaments/international/gamesummary/11/

Look at Mith-Trust's Leshrac 2:
http://www.dota2.com/tournaments/international/game/114
Scoreboard: http://www.dota2.com/tournaments/international/gamesummary/114/

Look at ok.Nirvana.cn's Lina:
http://www.dota2.com/tournaments/international/game/108
Scoreboard: http://www.dota2.com/tournaments/international/gamesummary/108/
This game was a total stomp, Lina decided to buy 3 point boosters in this joke game.

but in every game, you can tell from their playstyle that they were aiming to fufill the roles associated with INT heroes as described by DotACinema. Their builds attest to this, as do their trilanes, their constant warding, their ganks, their babysitting, etc. They also don't get Scepter, which would help them nuke much harder (something a 'nuker' would get).

Natsu wrote:
In other case, i put you true supports that helps his team mates all the game from early to late, with an enemy team piped or not, Shadow Priest, Omniknight and Crystal maiden.

Yeah, about that Orchid... whether an enemy has used it on your or not ... and what are 'true supports'?

Natsu wrote:
Shadow shaman dont deal that much of damage but his fucking heal can always save the ass of a carry and help him to "turn the table" in a bad moment, his ult helps to in any phase of the game. Next Omnikinght, his heal helps in any case of the game and his ult to with that physical damage resistance.

olol that's what you meant. Offensive vs defensive supports. If you think a Lina with Mekasm, Arcane Boots, Forcestaff do not support a team, something is wrong with you.
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PostSubject: Re: Video about roles   Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:07 am

Yo. Yond and Natsu, shut up and stop fighting over semantics.

Baby sitter is an adjective used to describe whether or not a hero is suitable for laning with a hardy carry/hero with carry potential that cannot lane alone.



The End.
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PostSubject: Re: Video about roles   Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:28 pm

Cut Chemist wrote:
Yo. Yond and Natsu, shut up and stop fighting over semantics.

Baby sitter is an adjective used to describe whether or not a hero is suitable for laning with a hardy carry/hero with carry potential that cannot lane alone.



The End.

TL;DR Lol kidding but your right.
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PostSubject: Re: Video about roles   Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:45 pm

Cut Chemist wrote:
Yo. Yond and Natsu, shut up and stop fighting over semantics.

Baby sitter is an adjective used to describe whether or not a hero is suitable for laning with a hardy carry/hero with carry potential that cannot lane alone.



The End.

ok u.u didnt see you this last days stick, thanks i think XD.
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PostSubject: Re: Video about roles   Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:18 pm

Cut Chemist wrote:
Yo. Yond and Natsu, shut up and stop fighting over semantics.

Baby sitter is an adjective used to describe whether or not a hero is suitable for laning with a hardy carry/hero with carry potential that cannot lane alone.



The End.

Nigga come outta nowhere

But that wasn't really what we were talking about but k D:

where the hell u been O.O
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Cut Chemist
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PostSubject: Re: Video about roles   Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:54 am

Busy with life.
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